I was at the well publicised meeting of senior Norfolk Conservatives yesterday discussing a response to the failed City Council unitary bid. The government has let it be known that they now favour a series of unitary councils across Norfolk and an enlarged Norwich unitary would solve the twin problems of value-for-money and affordability in the original bid. Such obvious politicing makes rational debate very difficult but we have been assured that Ministers haven't made up their minds and that the Treasury is still very worried about the Norwich bid, even when enlarged. Now the Greens have gone against an enlarged unitary and I understand the LibDems are a bit limp too (no change there then!)
The meeting was totally united behind fighting for the status quo which has given us a 4* county council and some superb Conservative controlled districts. I still feel that Norwich should start by putitng its own house in order before trying this power grab.
Not only are there still the financial concerns - with a Unitary you pay more and get less - but now we understand that Labour's own advisor has said that unitary's never pay form themselves. Plus this 3 unitary solution does seem a rather naive plan to undermine the county of Norfolk. We are stronger together than we are apart.
I am from Norwich and I live in Norwich City Council. I am from Norfolk and I live in Norfolk County Council. Each council offers me the services appropriate to its size and functions. Easy. I am not part of some unitary blob that may or may not run from Taverham to Trowse or even Horsford to Long Stratton. How do these random coloured lines on a map compare to our historic counties? No wonder some people are calling this a campaign to Save Norfolk.
The Conservatives are now clear and united on this - unlike Labour and the LibDems. We must harness the people power in Norfolk to stop this plan to split our county.
Given the unitary fight is now between the Labour and LibDems politicos at City Hall versus the people of Norfolk, I know who'd I would put money on.
This bid isn't inevitable or a fait accompli. It's far from that - the people will make sure of it.
8 comments:
The bid may not be inevitable or a fait a compli but no boundary committee report is going to recommend no change to the status quo, no matter how much public opinion can be mobilised.
The status quo is the problem, not the solution!
I live in Norwich as functional city, and Norfolk with a historic and romantic identity, but not administrative or political prior to 1974 (democractic that is). Norfolk existed before Norfolk CC, 1974 and will exist after Norfolk CC is stood down from its current brief.
Personally I can't see a negative conservative "Pickles" campaign working. Status quo is what it is, I can't see what this campaign is offering the Greater Norwich area, other than more of the same, rather than moving forward. I have financial concerns about the present arrangewent and duplication of councillors, planners and recycling staff. If Norfolk and Norwich meld can't offer more to Norwich then I'm for Unitary. Norwich needs modern boundaries, not medieval constraints.
If I look at the services I receive in Norwich development, planning is disfunctional and so is waste management. The county takes the Lions share yet there are cracks in Norwich roads and not enough affordable housing. The current arrangement in my mind has constrained Norwich growth and development.
Basically more of my council tax needs to go into the City Hall coffers, and council layers reduced to change my mind. If Norfolk antis gang up of Norwich residents that want to run their own city, that is not fair or healthy relationship either.
What should happen is the issue should be put the the vote at the next election. If the conservatives win the Unitary arguement in Norwich and the affected Greater Norwich area, then fair enough; if the majority is Lib Dems, Greens, Labour then Unitary should go ahead.
Basically Norwich, if you look at the wall at City Hall foyer and hundreds of years history, this is evidence that before 1974 and the artifical invention of Norfolk CC, Norwich ran all its services including the Police. The identity and pedigree is there. The same can happen again. Two political and administrative masters are unhealthy and dysfunctional for any inward investment and growth wanting to come to Norwich.
The Boundary Commission reports on the size of the new council and there then has to be consultation of that. The BCE won't make the final decision, the govt will (well, the treasury will!)
Don't fall for the City Hall line - they think that if they say it will happen then it will.
One of the considerations is "cross section of stakeholder support". Name me one group outside of Norwich City Council and the 3 other parties (only in the City) that support this.
I have seen the dossier of opposition County Hall has - its massive and all from independent groups, charities, schools etc. If masses of people join them, then it is game set and match.
Not even Norwich people are definitively in favour of this!
Second anon - the trouble with saying that the 07 ir even 08 polls are a referendum on uniary is that people vote on a variety of issues. If we ALL agreed to vote Tory if you are anti- or Lab/LD/Grn if you are pro- then it would work.
But I know die hard socialists who are anti-home rule who would NEVER vote Tory. Hence the need for a referendum.
Two surveys MORI 60/40and Citizen 75/25 shown strong Norwich public support for Unitary. Many do not like the current poor and assymetrical marriage. Norfolk CC historically have done little to address this politically or financially. I would guess 3 elected Norwich City Councillors out of 39 are against Unitary. It would interesting to know the position of Norwich Cathedral or Norwich Union of Unitary, or key other businesses, yet to declare their hand, to what clear administrative and political direction in Norwich is most appropriate and efficient for their needs.
Any Unitary is likely to be a poor but amicable divorce. Its understandable that some councillors just do not want the dysfunctional relational relationship to end; especially all the Norfolk CC cabinet members. How many of them have been elected by Norwich residents to control their affairs. Most county cabinet members hold divisions in West, South Norfolk and outer Broadland, whilst making decisions on major road and waste infrastructure strategies unsupported by many Norwich residents or elected representatives. the incinerator boar this out even with yourself antony, Park & ride charge increases when Norwich CC is trying to encourage bus use, NDR. Many areas that are likely within a Unitary boundary such as Costessey or New Costessey, or Trowse have been badly let down by detached County Council decisions.
Prolonging the Status Quo is a false position because Norwich resentment will only re emerge at a later point. A confident Norwich should run its own affairs. In any split or change its natural that many who will power and influence in Norwich at the county level or affected neighbouring district councils will have concerns.
The government are 90% likely to follow the BCE advice on boundaries, viable population and services, as a part of their decision. Ironically it was a government decision in 1974 to strip Norwich CC's powers and services in 1974.
I'm not against a referendum or whether it is carried as a referendum issue at the next election that affects the Greater Norwich area. At the end of the day, there are basically two decisions, whether referendum or government driven. I'm for Unitary and the future health and development of Norwich in all its facets, so most council tax is in the hands of elected representatives (whatever political creed) and officers at City Hall rather than at County Hall.
Personally I do not have a problem with other district councils or the county on how they reorganise, doughnuts. That should be a matter for those areas. What is sure Norfolk will not disappear in the public indentity, even if Norfolk CC changes or disappears. My belief is any negative campaign and backward step will end up in a Pickle, and any will leave many existing city residents and the City Council many fold more resentful than those affected by Unitary progression or boundary changes. Former conservative "doughnuts" had more progressive ideas of how this might work out.
Anon 1.23am - I can handle opinion, but your facts must be right.
"Two surveys MORI 60/40and Citizen 75/25 shown strong Norwich public support for Unitary."
Wrong - the MORI poll, which led to me and the company in dispute and myself winning, was based upon leading questions and STILL then only found 41% in favour and a majority for the status quo. The poll in the Citizens was based upon circa 125 response. Hardly any kind of overwhelming public response one way or the another. Why didn't you mention the EEN poll which was 2:1 against? Because all of these polls are not worth the paper they are written on, even the very very expensive MORI one. We have no idea what Norwich thinks of unitary.
"Many do not like the current poor and assymetrical marriage. Norfolk CC historically have done little to address this politically or financially."
Untrue - park n ride, bus station, the forum, schools investment et al. The CC does a lot for Norwich, but my one criticism of them is that they don't like to shout about it.
"I would guess 3 elected Norwich City Councillors out of 39 are against Unitary."
True, against the principle of unitary. But rather a lot more (including this week Cllr Read on behalf of the Greens) saying they oppose it on wider boundaries.
"It would interesting to know the position of Norwich Cathedral or Norwich Union of Unitary, or key other businesses, yet to declare their hand, to what clear administrative and political direction in Norwich is most appropriate and efficient for their needs."
I agree, but I have a feeling we'll never know.
"How many of them have been elected by Norwich residents to control their affairs."
The same number as the number of cabinet members elected to represent rural Norfolks affairs in 1997-2001. It is a partnership and the point of democracy is that you accept the result. Did you find Tories whinging about unitary for South Norfolk when Labour won in 1997?
"Most county cabinet members hold divisions in West, South Norfolk and outer Broadland,"
True, but most cabinet members held seats in Norwich, KL or GY during 97-01. So what? And many cabinet members represent urban areas around Norwich.
"whilst making decisions on major road and waste infrastructure strategies unsupported by many Norwich residents or elected representatives".
Prove it...
"Prolonging the Status Quo is a false position because Norwich resentment will only re emerge at a later point."
What resentment??? Where??? They said that in 1995...
"The government are 90% likely to follow the BCE advice on boundaries, viable population and services, as a part of their decision. Ironically it was a government decision in 1974 to strip Norwich CC's powers and services in 1974."
Not from what we hear ... the Treasury are still in poll position.
"I'm not against a referendum or whether it is carried as a referendum issue at the next election that affects the Greater Norwich area."
Fantastic, but Labour are!!
"At the end of the day, there are basically two decisions, whether referendum or government driven. I'm for Unitary and the future health and development of Norwich in all its facets, so most council tax is in the hands of elected representatives (whatever political creed) and officers at City Hall rather than at County Hall."
So you'd rather trust the 1* inadequate (below minimum standards) City Hall than the highly acclaimed 4* county? Interesting - you must be very wealthy!
"Personally I do not have a problem with other district councils or the county on how they reorganise, doughnuts. That should be a matter for those areas."
But you aren't giving them a choice over unitary because you are forcing them into Norwich against their will. Shouldn't the residents of TSA, Sprowston, Cringleford etc get a choice? You would say no, because its the only way to get your unitary to work.
"What is sure Norfolk will not disappear in the public indentity, even if Norfolk CC changes or disappears. My belief is any negative campaign and backward step will end up in a Pickle, and any will leave many existing city residents and the City Council many fold more resentful than those affected by Unitary progression or boundary changes. Former conservative "doughnuts" had more progressive ideas of how this might work out."
We'll see ;-)
Thanks for your comments, always enjoyable. Remember two things - people want value-for-money over everything else at local government level and the people should always have the last word.
Antony
"Untrue - park n ride, bus station, the forum, schools investment et al. The CC does a lot for Norwich, but my one criticism of them is that they don't like to shout about it."
But not enough!! For every 1p that Norwich Council Tax payers give to their own city council, 6p is given to the County Council, it should be the other way around if any, with the county ceding services. Who has to sort the roads out in Norwich on a shoe string whilst the County County takes the Lions Share of Council Tax to use to fix roads in Hunstantion? People in Norwich are paying double on roads effectively. Much school investment etc is actually central government cash, and the county council mearly a vehicle, this could be much better done at city level. Planning is duplicated. Waste is not integrated and recycling duplicated. Transport duplicated in officer posts. How can be afford an NDR when this money should be going to affordable home in Norwich for the thousands of people on the council house waiting list. The priority allocation is wrong as well as the Lions share. Incinerator scare, nothing to brag about, or the defunct and "non for profit" Obital bus route IMO.
""I would guess 3 elected Norwich City Councillors out of 39 are against Unitary.""
"True, against the principle of unitary. But rather a lot more (including this week Cllr Read on behalf of the Greens) saying they oppose it on wider boundaries."
Yes but Cllr Read say he supported both the concept of Unitary and boundary and administrative expansion beyond current boundaries the government didn't see as viable. Cllr Read's side motives one has to suspect are not one of empathy for conservative voters is Broadland but an ideological repulsion to the concept much needed (30,000 new homes) housing development, and a wish to straightjacke the city's economic growth in jobs, and cultivating allies in fighting airport expansion.
""It would interesting to know the position of Norwich Cathedral or Norwich Union of Unitary, or key other businesses, yet to declare their hand, to what clear administrative and political direction in Norwich is most appropriate and efficient for their needs.""
"I agree, but I have a feeling we'll never know."
I thought the Bishop of Norwich had already put his blessing and signiture to to the Unitary document? Business is happier if if can negociate and consult with one truely represented local government layer with clear development strategies, say over Growth Point, rather than 3-4 layers.
""How many of them have been elected by Norwich residents to control their affairs.""
"The same number as the number of cabinet members elected to represent rural Norfolks affairs in 1997-2001. It is a partnership and the point of democracy is that you accept the result. Did you find Tories whinging about unitary for South Norfolk when Labour won in 1997?"
But two wrongs make a right Antony? You highlight this injustice in the reverse direction. As you point out a partnership, but a unhealthy one. It does not mean one should not put up with this and not reorganise the change this democratic fudge. Past Norfolk CC elected members in Norwich had no business running the affairs of people in places like Diss, Thetford or Hunstanton. I agree!
""Most county cabinet members hold divisions in West, South Norfolk and outer Broadland,""
"True, but most cabinet members held seats in Norwich, KL or GY during 97-01. So what? And many cabinet members represent urban areas around Norwich."
Not most, some. So if they held seats in Norwich in the past, 6 years ago, why were they kicked out? Who are these Norwich urban cabinet members out of the 10 or so cabinet roles. They are certainly not the transport guy backing the NDR or the environment guy backing incinerators.
""whilst making decisions on major road and waste infrastructure strategies unsupported by many Norwich residents or elected representatives"".
"Prove it..."
Well were yu not against the worst county waste gaff at Longwater, and if it were not for this and the NDR, why does Norwich have 9 Green Party councillors? Many people in areas like Costessey, Thorpe, Sprowston, Spixworth and catton do not wish to see an NDR construction, especially paid for out of county collected congestion charges as Cllr Gunson seems to be considering.
""Prolonging the Status Quo is a false position because Norwich resentment will only re emerge at a later point.""
What resentment??? Where??? They said that in 1995...
I think you are out of touch on this Antony, we are not in 1995, and the issue will rear its head even more. The more people in Norwich on the street see Unitary is possible, the figures add up for Norwich, its a can of worms one can't put back in the can. This unhealthy marriage should end and just, more simple, democratically representative healthy partnerships developed on shared mutual issues such as development and transport, from an equal basis.
""The government are 90% likely to follow the BCE advice on boundaries, viable population and services, as a part of their decision. Ironically it was a government decision in 1974 to strip Norwich CC's powers and services in 1974.""
"Not from what we hear ... the Treasury are still in poll position."
What poll position. Sounds like basless gossip. They have been in poll position from 1997!
If the BCE draws viable boundaries independently, the government will push for this, as its unitary rules are met, just like Ispwich or Exeter. If the BCE can't draw viable boundaries the government can't back unitary, but the former looks highly likely.
""I'm not against a referendum or whether it is carried as a referendum issue at the next election that affects the Greater Norwich area.""
Fantastic, but Labour are!!
"Well if Unitary is the biggest issue at the next election, then lets have the referendum, or a count of pro/against elected councillors campaigning on/ against the issue in the Greater Norwich area. It happens with every other issue.
""At the end of the day, there are basically two decisions, whether referendum or government driven. I'm for Unitary and the future health and development of Norwich in all its facets, so most council tax is in the hands of elected representatives (whatever political creed) and officers at City Hall rather than at County Hall.""
So you'd rather trust the 1* inadequate (below minimum standards) City Hall than the highly acclaimed 4* county? Interesting - you must be very wealthy!
Norfolk is only 4* because it has the luxury of having 6p out of 7p, and leaves 1p out of 7p to Norwich CC. If this were not the status would be reversed and local councillors wouldn't be fighting over limited road sign, zebra crossing, road repair or grafitti removal budgets; financed by the scaps after Norfolk CC 6p and the Police 0.8p have taken their share.
"Personally I do not have a problem with other district councils or the county on how they reorganise, doughnuts. That should be a matter for those areas."
But you aren't giving them a choice over unitary because you are forcing them into Norwich against their will. Shouldn't the residents of TSA, Sprowston, Cringleford etc get a choice? You would say no, because its the only way to get your unitary to work.
In any reorganisation there will always be people who are not feel they get their way. Unitary IMO there are likely to be more winners in the Greater Norwich area, whereever the viable boundary falls than losers. It should noy be my unitary, but ours, and I hope that people living under 4 layers of local bureaucracy and current status quo have there Unitary whether as Norfolk Unitary, West Norfolk or East Norfolk. But this is a matter for people in Kings Lynn and Great Yarmouth and Cromer, not residents in Norwich.
""What is sure Norfolk will not disappear in the public indentity, even if Norfolk CC changes or disappears. My belief is any negative campaign and backward step will end up in a Pickle, and any will leave many existing city residents and the City Council many fold more resentful than those affected by Unitary progression or boundary changes. Former conservative "doughnuts" had more progressive ideas of how this might work out.""
We'll see ;-)
I am confident the Norfolk identity will survive, the greatest threat is not Norwich Unitary change, it is the creation of an East Anglia or Eastern Region direction coming from Brussels and the EU.
"Thanks for your comments, always enjoyable. Remember two things - people want value-for-money over everything else at local government level and the people should always have the last word."
I agree! Greater Norwich Unitary will get better value for money as burearcracy is simplified, services are integrated to engage with growth and enterprise. The business case has been proven, the case to prove are the boundaries and population viability. A complex input that is worked on independently by the BCE. Local people and councillors should have the predominant say in Greater Norwich area, not MPs living in Diss, County Councillors living in Oxborough or even central HQ mavericks from Harrogate.
One year ago I would say I was undecided on Unitary, like many, now I am convinced Unitary staus for the Greater Norwich area is the way forward for healthy democracy, Norwich as a city, better service delivery and for the council tax payer who will seen one figure on the invoice other than that of the police. Growth and wealth will come to Norwich in the next two decades, but IMO there should be only one strong elected driver at the wheel.
I'm sure this will run and run, but the progressive arguement is Unitary, which the negative debate is for the status quo. If all were sweet, and its not, Unitary would not be a hot issue IMO.
It seems to me, that council never had too much extra cash to spend, City Hall seem to be always short of money & have to make lots of cuts ?
But when it comes to Unitary, Norwich City Council has a bottomless pit ?
The votes / council tax payers, central government, other councils can not stop this, it is a done deal, because they said so on they own web site.
I think they are wrong to give this council one star, they should award them five 'dusty bins'.
Good luck with Save Norfolk.
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